#3 - Alexander Mai & Pierre Francis - The State of the Industry

00:00:01: It's a joke that is written about the bike industry and they say two people are talking to each other.

00:00:06: And one says, oh my god we have fourteen different standards for bottom brackets?

00:00:10: Okay let's invent one to end it all!

00:00:14: The outcome was okay.

00:00:15: now we've got fifteen standard for bottom records.

00:00:18: so this basically how you go... To unify an industry thats so diverse & traditional its very difficult.

00:00:27: Traditionalism big capitals for the bike industry.

00:00:35: Hey everyone, I'm Youse Bing a cycling journalist and commentator.

00:00:40: Welcome to Shift Happens!

00:00:42: The official Eurobike podcast.

00:00:44: Every month i sit down with leaders innovators and change makers from across the cycling world To explore trends technologies And ideas shaping the future of our industry.

00:00:54: After all in our industry shift happens every day.

00:00:58: Thanks for joining us.

00:00:59: let's get into todays episode.

00:01:03: Hello and welcome yet again to Shift Happens, the official Eurobike podcast.

00:01:09: This is episode three.

00:01:10: we are going to look at The State of the Industry.

00:01:14: My name is Jose Bain And I have got two very interesting guests Of course.

00:01:20: First of all Alex May He's EU sales director at Kenda Tires.

00:01:25: We've Pierre Francis, co-founder of Sexy Alexander.

00:01:30: Welcome to the Eurobike podcast.

00:01:34: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your career in uh... The bike industry because it spans fifteen-sixteen years already.

00:01:44: and what does Kenda do?

00:01:46: Yeah thanks for having me and yeah episode three times the charm they say right.

00:01:51: so let's see where this takes us!

00:01:53: Yeah Kenda ties.

00:01:54: um we've been around sixty four years this year and so we've been established in in sixty two of the last century.

00:02:02: And to actually started a bike tires.

00:02:04: and nowadays where one off the five biggest manufacturers in rubber products, and we are one after few that actually owns the whole process which means from development process over the prototyping and production facilities.

00:02:21: so it also mean sweet do not only produce our own tires, but also sixty percent plus.

00:02:28: that leaves manufacturing sites is not with a Kenda name on it.

00:02:34: You're not allowed to disclose which other brands you are producing?

00:02:38: Unfortunately no!

00:02:40: If your in the industry long enough might know... Yeah, but I'm not allowed to disclose.

00:02:46: No that's okay and your time in the industry also spans fifteen-sixteen years already?

00:02:52: Twenty!

00:02:52: It is crazy when you think back at least twenty and last fourteen international executive roles... And i've been with another tire manufacturer before I joined Kanda and which was even over a hundred years old.

00:03:09: As you can say, it's Fredestine so most people might know this.

00:03:13: So yeah quite some experience in the tire business And in general bicycle trade.

00:03:20: Then we move on to Pierre Francis.

00:03:24: You are co-founder of Cixi Which is CIXI

00:03:29: Correct.

00:03:31: Can you tell us a little bit about the brand?

00:03:33: I read it was founded in twenty fifteen, in beautiful Annecy.

00:03:37: In The French Alps.

00:03:38: Tell me what your role is there.

00:03:43: So we're new commerce.

00:03:46: basically compared to Alexander and Kenna We've been working around for last decade A bit more And the principle's very simple.

00:03:56: We try make people move every day by bringing technology that is going to make cycling easier.

00:04:06: By that, I speak mostly about the chainless technologies we developed and which have been introduced on the market officially since one year now.

00:04:15: so there are something like fifty plus brands working currently in prototypes.

00:04:19: a couple of those brands or ten of them are in series right?

00:04:23: The idea's very simple you remove mechanical transmission So you have less mechanical parts and don't need to shift gears when moving on your bike.

00:04:35: It's still a bike!

00:04:37: But chainless peddling, Pierre?

00:04:39: That is something that people will not understand because a bike goes with the chain... ...and it goes with tyres.

00:04:45: How can we explain in very simple terms how this works?

00:04:51: First of all You should keep in mind We had exactly the same dilemma as car industry Something like twenty years ago when the first electric cars which actually weren't the first ones but When Tesla came in everyone was saying it's just not gonna work.

00:05:06: It's not possible.

00:05:07: Actually, every one rides a electric or nearly once gonna ride an electric car within next ten years?

00:05:12: This is exactly the same we're doing.

00:05:15: The way the chain this works goes as follow when you pedal there's a generator in the pedaling device that Is giving you some force feedback that feels and tastes exactly the same as what your bike does.

00:05:30: When you go uphill it's more difficult, when you go downhill is easier.

00:05:34: but there are extra features because a generator then transforms your muscular energy into electricity flows in to the models.

00:05:44: so he also works without the battery.

00:05:45: by the way if its lightweight enough bike we call that the battery less mode We have.

00:05:55: some people do test rides on the last Eurobike of the Batrilesse mode.

00:06:00: The idea is very neat, it's something you can have in a bike that's then geometrically completely free.

00:06:08: Maintenance goes very low No oil no chain that wears No moving rotating parts No fine tuning especially on lengthy chains.

00:06:21: So the concept is very simple.

00:06:23: You transform the muscular energy into electricity that flows in to a model and you do that with the taste of a bike.

00:06:30: Fascinating, really interesting.

00:06:32: Alexander did you have chance at your own bike?

00:06:34: To actually ride one of their sixi models?

00:06:37: No I'm one lucky ones who are chained on a booth when there's show happening so i rarely get the chance to test something.

00:06:46: but they say chainless or let's say drive by wire, as you would say.

00:06:53: it is something that I'm familiar with and i like.

00:06:57: When we look into chainless systems when the first bell drives came out people said okay there are no grease but still comes in a complication to have special frame for getting done.

00:07:10: so think your on right path up here might

00:07:13: open two more.

00:07:15: Yeah, absolutely.

00:07:16: And but it still takes some time to adapt to this.

00:07:18: I mean if you look at what Tesla did with their steer by wire where basically turn the wheel just not entirely over But they get full yaw angle of your tires.

00:07:30: It's something that we have got used too in modern times.

00:07:34: people should be able to adapt To

00:07:37: take a bit more time.

00:07:39: Yes certainly there is.

00:07:41: i think its right.

00:07:44: Sadly, Alexander didn't get a chance at the big testing ground that we had at Eurobike.

00:07:49: Maybe next year, Alexander because it is coming back?

00:07:52: What were the reactions Pierre you got from users?

00:07:56: Well maybe no... It's been really two years without people test-riding technology.

00:08:04: Two years ago.

00:08:04: The change was very fast with it Because its pure software.

00:08:09: Its like having something like smartphone or computer that you update on each time your operating system is being changed, and the feeling evolves as fast as that.

00:08:24: Each new update brings a better feeling.

00:08:29: so two years ago it was okay with shortcomings The noise which is paradoxically most of the noise or was software problem Which is quite difficult to grasp when you're not in or the reaction, and this changed dramatically over two years.

00:08:49: We send a lot of energy to give you another magnitude.

00:08:53: version of the software is now four point five.

00:08:56: we were still in version too Two years ago.

00:08:58: And then the reaction of people.

00:09:00: The most interesting was in Düsseldorf I think but also at the same quite a few times in Eurobike of people, we just have random people get on the bike go for a test ride come back and ask them okay what did you think without having told them yes that there was a chainess.

00:09:19: And they were like oh wow!

00:09:21: Oh yes I know when I pedal backward i can brake uh...and then we tell him.

00:09:28: do you notice?

00:09:29: There's no chain and thats where their head goes.

00:09:31: like

00:09:31: what?!

00:09:32: There is no chain.

00:09:34: Notice the difference.

00:09:35: Of course, I was not professional riders or guys who are very experienced on that because these people Are very demanding and they're feeling reaction because of their habits.

00:09:44: but average People don't make a difference

00:09:47: off course.

00:09:49: all bikes still need tires Alexander.

00:09:52: so That brings us to The current market.

00:09:56: what other big changes?

00:09:57: That have happened in your industry in the past years?

00:10:01: yeah just following the demand of our OE customers and also developments in bikes, last mile cargo.

00:10:11: Also your solutions that you are offering.

00:10:13: with even bikes they can go on a highway to just help you commute... Exactly!

00:10:21: The requirements for tires have changed drastically.

00:10:25: we actually see ourselves In this new development process.

00:10:29: we see ourselves actually going back to old techniques, let's say of using dual ply and even moped carcasses.

00:10:37: To just accommodate that the need for higher load index or more structural integrity withstanding lateral movement which you don't have because normally on a bike you do tilting a tilting movement.

00:10:52: And if you have multi-wheeled vehicle shear forces that actually are just influencing the tires.

00:11:00: So you have different wear patterns, another of course as I mentioned is a load index that we're looking into.

00:11:07: so our latest development in the cargo version has capability of two hundred kilograms per tire which definitely helps to accommodate this need for new products.

00:11:20: and then e-bikes that also have a new requirement in terms of safety features.

00:11:32: You basically you have to pass a moped test, so it's the ECR-CV which then actually is tested on all your products and certificate that you can use it on fast e-bikes.

00:11:48: I mean luckily they're just forty five kilometers, i couldn't imagine actually going faster on an E bike really.

00:11:57: but yeah the future is really going there because if you want to commute and wanna be faster then go faster from A to B. But of course their requirements are different And i think vehicle will have a different one than just normal bikes.

00:12:12: Yeah, just chime in and...

00:12:16: I fully agree.

00:12:16: We are trying to bridge the gap between the fastest sea bikes And what would be a motorbike or car?

00:12:27: There's many things we can do in-between still being a bike Or at least speedbikes.

00:12:32: But then the tires ...we know quite a lot about that because our clients Cargo Bikes Clients They all struggle to find the right tyres and the right rims.

00:12:41: Maybe

00:12:41: you should talk after

00:12:43: Definitely.

00:12:44: Well, you're a bike in action already the networking component of it at least.

00:12:49: It's very good to clarify that.

00:12:51: we are not only talking about traditional bikes with two wheels and front and rear wheel.

00:12:55: We were talking all sorts of mobility issues that we were able see in action as well.

00:13:04: The current market during Covid years seemed like there was Endless growth.

00:13:10: everybody wanted to be on the bike because it was safer.

00:13:13: It was faster, it was Healthy.

00:13:15: it was quite often the only exercise that we were allowed to do and then we gradually morphed into a market of displacement.

00:13:23: Alexander how?

00:13:25: Do you feel The state is a market right now?

00:13:28: where are we our way back on a growth path or still in the displacement phase?

00:13:33: Well That's tough.

00:13:34: I mean at times We always see there's scarcity of product again.

00:13:39: So there's definitely, so this times of overflowing overstock that was omnipresent is no more.

00:13:47: That's something that's happening.

00:13:49: but just looking back into COVID-times I mean what we've seen was an amplified demand upstream and hitting a market which was eager for growth because at the market it has been slightly growing, slightly shrinking Upstream or upswing direction.

00:14:11: so everybody just was trying to get a bigger piece of the cake.

00:14:15: So we always been in a displacement market and this is still the case I mean, off course.

00:14:21: We have new products coming in?

00:14:23: We have New players coming into the markets And there's always especially In the German speaking market There's always room for.

00:14:30: somebody knew Yeah, definitely some requirements that Have to be met but generally were quite an adaptive and respecting market when it comes to new products.

00:14:43: A requirement.

00:14:44: you're thinking about EU regulations, the kind of product requirements that you just talked about?

00:14:50: Exactly!

00:14:50: I mean this is one thing that keeps markets fairly clean which is a good thing.

00:14:56: so as long as you keep those requirements... ...which not every manufacturer is capable of doing.

00:15:02: So this what i meant exactly.

00:15:04: Pierre, the Covid years.

00:15:07: Yeah, the company was still developing.

00:15:09: Is that something that influenced your company at SIXY?

00:15:11: No,

00:15:12: COVID had no impact because we were not addressing the market.

00:15:15: It wasn't an impact because it couldn't work in the office Obviously but... We are very small in terms of number of collaborators At this time.

00:15:25: So it's quite easy for us to get through the Covid And even the post-pandemic was too tough on us As far as we weren't selling anything.

00:15:37: So it was all stealing into R&D phase.

00:15:41: I think my...I'm a newcomer on the industry, come from other worlds.

00:15:47: Cixi being my third company The previous one is now our big home care services company And and the previous one with IT.

00:15:57: so i have My way of looking at the bike industries completely new.

00:16:02: I am marveled by many things.

00:16:04: I marvel but they ambiance there Like, going on exhibitions.

00:16:08: before in my previous life that was just dreadful.

00:16:12: It was really uninteresting... ...in terms of interactions with people Going on exhibition booths In the bike industry.

00:16:20: That's way more pleasant A lot more pleasant.

00:16:23: People there are just relaxed and they cycle around.

00:16:26: So it is cool.

00:16:28: But I see a difference i would say in the people who buy bikes today.

00:16:34: Very basically I used to commute a lot in Paris and they are still commuting when i go there with the train on my bike.

00:16:41: The difference, as you have noticed over the last ten years is that before Covid- there were few bikes in paris.

00:16:48: now When I come out of Gardelion at the TGV station take my bike out... ...I need care for other cyclists around who will work at nine o'clock It's really crowded.

00:17:01: There was huge change in Paris many big cities and probably more places.

00:17:10: They can see a sight and sees is a microcosm, very special outdoor oriented.

00:17:15: so people would have been cycling all the time in here.

00:17:18: but now people cycle more at least in France for going to work For daily life.

00:17:23: that's why they have cargo bikes.

00:17:25: That's right.

00:17:25: there are two kids on the front Two kids in back The groceries And when I had my kids were young.

00:17:31: we do that In Paris.

00:17:32: But it was quite dangerous And we had to tinker.

00:17:36: We have to buy a very special bike that we are to retrofit with so many accessories.

00:17:41: There was no offer, but would suit our own need at the time.

00:17:45: That's fifteen, eighteen years ago.

00:17:48: So there is real change in what people

00:17:51: are

00:17:52: waiting for from a bike now.

00:17:54: Yeah...that also one of phrases I found on your website mobility solutions really focusing on the active part of it to get people out-of-the car onto a Yeah, non motorized vehicle.

00:18:10: Well It is actually a motorised vehicle but not with fossil fuels in that case.

00:18:14: well That's one aspect the ecological aspect of it.

00:18:17: you move less tons of material To move yourself so use your energy its better for sure.

00:18:23: now The bet we're doing with six is different.

00:18:27: We are betting on Moving around with your muscles is very natural should never have stopped.

00:18:34: We've done been doing that for at least the three hundred thousand years.

00:18:36: That passed and all of a sudden.

00:18:39: For the last maybe one hundred fifty years, one hundred years we decided to move only with cars Which is weird?

00:18:46: It's too fast it's too quick were not big blobby things With only head on their shoulder no muscles underneath.

00:18:53: so you feel better if You are being active And that's the old purpose of that company.

00:19:00: make sure people become aware of that and have tools to get there again without dropping the time schedule, the distances to go to work when it's thirty kilometers or if its rainy or snowy or storm.

00:19:13: Alexander these are all sorts of new markets also for candle ties.

00:19:18: how do you approach all this new market?

00:19:21: All those new mobility solutions?

00:19:23: How did your getting contact with... pioneers and new ideas that are on the market to keep people moving.

00:19:31: I mean, the good thing is basically getting in contact.

00:19:34: it's not difficult anymore since we're living in a digital world everybody just barging out their new developments or whatnot.

00:19:46: so for us its actually quite easy to find potential customers for this.

00:19:51: And let say were solution providers?

00:19:54: Yes, so and what we see especially in the cargo world.

00:19:57: And last my logistics or whatever it's its.

00:20:00: can you explain?

00:20:02: What that is lost?

00:20:02: my logistic or last but this is uh...what do you see inner city or an urban environments is when they use these um... Cargo bikes.

00:20:10: there still bikes But they look like mini vans In a way So their also operated with bike handlebars Also With The Same or a similar drive by wire system.

00:20:21: If they're lucky, otherwise it's just the long chain that actually operates the rear wheels.

00:20:26: and there is also the high load bikes I was referring to when mentioning their requirements for development.

00:20:35: as i said we are the solution providers of this and were looking at keeping maintenance low and reducing downtime because deliveries that's the most important.

00:20:48: and since we are having this in this ace of our sleeves for us it is actually quite easy to open conversations also find new customers.

00:20:58: It was easier than persuading a traditional bike manufacturer because many competitors producing great tires.

00:21:11: So basically, this is the true displacement market.

00:21:15: while these new environment that we are looking into there's much more room for us to grow in too.

00:21:22: Because Pierre what your most promising new product?

00:21:26: Are you talking about a bike or kind of mini vans and cargo solutions... You even talked about bikes going on highways!

00:21:38: That's the core of the Soul of Sixty, the Vigo project.

00:21:42: But it's no longer a bike that you need a driving license It is more of car if we conduct but its called an active vehicle.

00:21:51: I would say this difference very interesting but not in the bike industry.

00:21:55: i'd still to be active Of course No!

00:22:00: In terms of markets what we see today are the market jumping easy Fast onto the tech we propose, the chainless path.

00:22:12: It's all players that have real pains with a chain today.

00:22:19: So take an example The world of handicapped people.

00:22:24: A wheelchair when you equip it With a mandalya I don't know English term for that If you pedal with your hands

00:22:31: Accessory, yeah?

00:22:32: The abatec kind thing.

00:22:33: Yeah

00:22:34: sorry i dont'know their english name

00:22:36: No, but it's an accessory you put in front of the wheelchair that... ...you can pedal with your hands.

00:22:41: Exactly!

00:22:42: In French we say main like the hands d'allier.

00:22:45: Pé d'aillet is main d'alier not the feet but with their hands.

00:22:50: And this there typically has no brainer because when you have a terrible accident or whatever You don't have all power everywhere or less power in the right arm than left, then you need special controllers that will allow to go pedal with your hands.

00:23:11: But we have a specific rule which makes it possible.

00:23:17: That's fairly doable with our software control.

00:23:22: So these markets, this special market they grab technology today and sell a lot also of these in the trike industry, for instance.

00:23:33: The US are a market that is dragging strongly our sales.

00:23:40: Voila!

00:23:41: So it's not the big players.

00:23:44: they will take time to get there...

00:23:46: Is still very conservative market?

00:23:49: Oh

00:23:50: yes

00:23:51: but thats normal one hundred years habits and takes something into account.

00:23:58: again my my parallel with the car industry, what just happened.

00:24:03: I won't give names of course but take one of a biggest bike player in the world.

00:24:11: The CEO asked you to go and see his innovation director.

00:24:17: You spend one day there Test ride bikes etc.

00:24:22: After end-of-the-day the guy looks at us says i don't see interest.

00:24:28: It's like ok we've been even so bad doing this demonstration, where we should change our jobs.

00:24:34: We should stop CXC right away or there's something different at stake there and my guess is that the second option is a good one.

00:24:43: What's at stake?

00:24:44: There it's a guy in front of us who was the head of innovation Of very large corporation.

00:24:51: knows everything about mechanics.

00:24:54: He's really good at mechanics but know nothing about electronics.

00:24:58: So if he agrees on fact The future is chainless.

00:25:03: Then he has to replace all his team, himself included which will not happen of course or naturally open.

00:25:14: so it would take time

00:25:15: but you're very optimistic.

00:25:17: I think you are an optimistic man.

00:25:19: yes and i'm patient

00:25:21: Alexander do you see the same kind of conservatism in your industry?

00:25:25: Absolutely.

00:25:26: I mean, it's also me and you're an optimist but also a realist so that what is definitely... You wouldn't believe how often we come across the sentence of yeah!

00:25:37: We've always done this way.

00:25:39: So why should be change?

00:25:41: And for the most part might be true because there are not that need to be changed.

00:25:48: But just show these openness to new developments.

00:25:55: And just give you one example, it's actually a joke that is written about the bike industry and they say two people are talking to each other and then says oh my god we have fourteen different standards for bottom brackets?

00:26:11: Okay let's invent.

00:26:16: The outcome was, okay now we have fifteen standards for bottom records.

00:26:19: So this is basically how it goes to unify an industry that's so diverse and then traditional.

00:26:27: its very difficult.

00:26:29: This traditionalism in big capitals of the bike industry.

00:26:37: On the other hand, we see like you already explained with the cargo bikes that there's a lot of new demands on components.

00:26:44: So we are moving forward in a conservative brand.

00:26:48: how do you deal?

00:26:49: That situation

00:26:52: yet it is moving forward or is an addition because as we did it.

00:27:02: But there's always some addition to that market and this is actually what we are addressing with the new developments, but of course if you look at traditional bikes... The performance sector has always been an innovation driver for a certain branch or whatever.

00:27:20: You can see in the automotive.

00:27:22: Everybody just testing motor parts with Formula One And then also sales The truck when they say okay one percent of that knowledge is also in their truck.

00:27:33: Yeah, so this basically how this trends translates down into each and every product.

00:27:38: But yeah we try to just keep everything as close to the market as possible because for us a attire manufacturer Of course you can be innovative but it's very hard to actually create demand around A component rather than following what somebody else is doing and has this demand.

00:28:01: Yes, so we need to actually see the problem occur first before we can provide a solution.

00:28:08: So do very good with you already done it?

00:28:10: And then improve on the newer markets.

00:28:13: Is that where your saying

00:28:14: yeah?

00:28:15: That's in a nutshell What I mean.

00:28:16: yes

00:28:17: We had something i discovered with entering industry.

00:28:22: I'm coming from sectors that are not the industry, and what i am going to say is same in the bike industry as in car industry or any other industries.

00:28:30: The interdependency of players... I depend on my suppliers.

00:28:36: they depend on me but in a way it's existential.

00:28:42: like we delivered twenty bikes into the city.

00:28:45: today We're just building bikes.

00:28:53: If a guy doesn't do his job well, I'm the one not delivering the bikes to your client.

00:29:00: That's a huge

00:29:01: problem

00:29:01: for me first and then as a rebound with my supplier.

00:29:07: So we are really so Interdependent that everyone should be very aware of that And that they would act accordingly which means play fair Be decent and that's not always the case, of course.

00:29:21: But it is really something very impressive to me in industry... The interdependency!

00:29:29: But you are strong as your weakest link basically?

00:29:32: Exactly!

00:29:34: If I may chime here on this interdependence that absolutely true.

00:29:39: but also at same time nobody sharing any data.

00:29:42: So, I mean if you're coming from the automotive industry and since we are also quite big in passenger car tires as well.

00:29:50: Whenever i see the availability of data quality that my colleagues out of PCT are having access to... ...I'm getting wet eyes because it's crazy!

00:30:02: A

00:30:02: little bit jealous?

00:30:03: Yeah oh!

00:30:04: Big time jealous yeah.

00:30:05: so therefore its definitely something where the industry can just do a big step up in this regard.

00:30:14: How did you explain that lack of transparency and the bike industry?

00:30:20: There was no need so far... Where is it done?

00:30:22: Yeah, there's just sign-of times where everybody working on their silo with no advantage in sharing data.

00:30:32: Maybe not volume either

00:30:34: Possibly But the volume is quite big when you look at it as being a replacement part.

00:30:42: So there's definitely something that... There certainly an interest into looking in to this, but so far I don't think there was any benefit of sharing data for each and every participant.

00:30:56: How do you see transparency Pierre?

00:31:00: Yeah, in quite a new company and as a newcomer into the bike industry.

00:31:05: How can we be more transparent?

00:31:07: And help each other forward instead of holding each other back

00:31:12: right?

00:31:12: tough question The way We are trying not

00:31:15: going to solve the world's problems But it's nice to have a little thought.

00:31:20: experiment now.

00:31:20: but look for instance the way we Are building.

00:31:25: when you buy your pairs the core over technology chain list with pedaling device itself you need many other things around.

00:31:31: You need the harness, the wires... ...you need a battery or two batteries.. ..you need more wheel motor and control of the motor.

00:31:39: All this.

00:31:40: we don't build it We buy it.

00:31:42: So....we are trying to build something that is completely open to rest of our world.

00:31:49: Which means when you buy your purse , you can put almost any component around.

00:31:55: We have clients who buys just the purse And we provide them all the tech dock So the can dictionary, connectivity features.

00:32:07: Everything is provided.

00:32:08: it's very transparent.

00:32:10: so to say... ...so that they could put their own battery and their own models.

00:32:15: We have only one request there which at the end we test-try products.

00:32:20: They've built whatever product.

00:32:21: It's cargo, it's an on-bike, it has a pedal deck or anything And if quality is good enough It can go to the market.

00:32:29: If not, we work with them to make it good enough.

00:32:31: because as a young brand... ...we don't want to be killed by bad reputation of one product.

00:32:38: Like if someone delivers a bike.

00:32:39: and it happened in the past... A client in London would do his best to integrate the kit but did not do a good job with control motors.

00:32:50: So he had eighty percent of the optics correct And we cannot let that go on the market Without being ninety five ninety six ninety eight percent correct.

00:32:59: because then the people who say oh, that's the pedaling device Chainness.

00:33:02: That doesn't work.

00:33:04: Well but it's only requirement we make the rest is transparent.

00:33:08: have you had partners Who have refused?

00:33:12: The product because of this demand for a final test?

00:33:16: no

00:33:16: not Because we help.

00:33:18: We never say No.

00:33:21: I can imagine, Alexander that there's also a lot of regulations coming into building attire.

00:33:28: And you said at the start of the podcast, Ken does their from the very first part all the way to the final product from development to production?

00:33:37: One of things is EU regulations on deforestation for example.

00:33:42: Can you explain briefly how that affects your day-to-day business?

00:33:46: EU regulations compliance issues?

00:33:49: Yeah, I wouldn't say it's complies issues.

00:33:52: It really like requirements or if you want to say so is something that we have to deal with.

00:33:59: So its not creating additional work flow processes for us.

00:34:07: and speaking of EUDR thats the latest one that we are facing.

00:34:12: That is

00:34:13: deforestation rules

00:34:14: Exactly EU deforestation regulation.

00:34:17: And this is actually to prevent rubber manufacturers and manufacture or use rubber products, or latex in the manufacturing that comes out of a plantation site.

00:34:35: That has been used or has been deforestating any lot on land in favor of rubber trees.

00:34:44: There's many thoughts Around this in the industry, not everybody is really positive and already this regulation has been postponed for two years.

00:34:54: But ultimately now it's happening And since we are just a EU regulation.

00:35:01: We also have different other countries that were working with.

00:35:07: We are required to have a separate production line, we need to provide geo locations from where this was sourced.

00:35:22: In the end it's doable but the biggest hurdle here is... insecurity or lack of a strict guideline for each of the providers and also the recipients alike.

00:35:36: So it's still not entirely clear what is required, so but we really try to do everything in our best knowledge yeah?

00:35:48: Let us say that if you try to Do It Right!

00:35:51: What are some kind of regulations that come into play in your day-to-day business.

00:35:57: Is it also very much EU or French regulations?

00:36:01: Or do you feel a more open, unrestricted playground to invent and innovate

00:36:07: for?

00:36:07: For succeed, I mean... No!

00:36:10: It's the contrary of Open and Playground.

00:36:14: It is minefields.

00:36:17: Not because this is an old problem but it was classical not restricted by bike industry Planted.

00:36:25: big players don't want things to change.

00:36:28: No, so they do everything They can including regulation pressure

00:36:33: By

00:36:35: a lot.

00:36:36: Not gonna be too specific there But it requires a lot of our time and attention on the European level And on the French level To make sure that chain list is not banned out.

00:36:50: now It's.

00:36:52: It's an important part of the work we're doing, but it is a classical thing in any industry.

00:36:58: You just have to work around and work with it

00:37:02: instead?

00:37:05: To make sure that players who are there... I mean they were same in Italy for the seventeenth or sixteenth century where big corporations don't want lose their big corporations.

00:37:19: so if you use every means

00:37:22: Everybody wants to keep their own share of the pie.

00:37:25: Yes!

00:37:27: I can imagine that these kind of regulations do require a little bit creativity from a big global manufacturer, Alexander?

00:37:36: Does it also hold back innovation you think?

00:37:40: Not necessarily since innovation for us lies in construction not raw material Really?

00:37:48: So it's the source, yeah.

00:37:50: It is this one thing that requires us to just follow certain rules and but I cannot say that its holding back innovation per se.

00:38:02: no

00:38:04: Are you guys working on materials themselves or not at all?

00:38:07: Yeah we do.

00:38:08: We have compound engineers.

00:38:11: Everybody will have chemical laboratories.

00:38:14: like if think about a tire manufacturer as big at it could be, It would be us.

00:38:22: So we have all the facilities and everything that comes with it.

00:38:27: We are having worldwide, we're having around fourteen thousand employees working for Kanda

00:38:34: Because its huge part of the footprint The tires

00:38:41: It's the literal foundation of

00:38:44: it is, I think i said that in a previous interview.

00:38:48: Is really this one part actually connects you on every vehicle and pavement?

00:38:55: And its very few things haven't changed fundamentally since inventing the bicycle because we have gotten rid of chains right now.

00:39:05: We are going electric, but a tire is always gonna be necessary.

00:39:10: Pierre asked at the start just before we went live actually if there's ever going to be non-pinchable tires?

00:39:18: Never flat again in your life!

00:39:20: Is that dream or

00:39:21: possibility?".

00:39:22: I mean they have been certain Attempts to get that done.

00:39:29: There's the non-neumatic world and there are the airless tires we're looking at, but always some downside is either comfort will suffer from it or mountability will suffer because a non pneumatic tire is very hard to mount on traditional rim.

00:39:49: so you have just look into other components if they also match.

00:39:56: We are of course, we're looking into especially with the new requirements of higher loads and at last month that I've mentioned.

00:40:25: Reason for pinch flats is under inflation.

00:40:28: Yeah, so therefore this also something that we are again providing a solution four for these problems.

00:40:33: So while I'm not saying there will never be a pinchless tire But let's say a solid tire or an airless tire might not be the solution at least not for our industry.

00:40:45: but Who knows?

00:40:46: In five years I will look back to this and say, oh man you were so wrong.

00:40:50: There

00:40:50: was that material... Exactly!

00:40:54: You never know.

00:40:54: but let's say as of now no there

00:41:05: is none.

00:41:14: Yeah, literally palpable products than the product that Pierre has at Cixi.

00:41:19: It is it so while in different parts of off-the-world we have different approaches to uh... The industry and also too the distribution part like In the US We Also Have Direct To Consumer Channels.

00:41:33: On The European Soul We Work With Traditional Distribution Channel Which Means We Actually Sell To A Distributor Distributes to an IBD, so Independent Bicycle Department Store or sometimes even to a consumer direct or e-tailers.

00:41:49: This is the way that we are working at the moment.

00:41:53: Yeah you said... You can sell as little as what you call the best just only the component?

00:42:04: How does your distribution network look like?

00:42:07: how do you find your customers?

00:42:09: Oh, we do a lot of exhibitions.

00:42:12: We tour and meet them... ...we also do lots of tours in Europe for instance.

00:42:17: For the last two years I counted with doing seventeen times the tour of Europe on our truck….

00:42:23: …with bikes in back and just visit clients everywhere!

00:42:27: And what are those clients?

00:42:28: Are they end consumers?

00:42:29: or is it like you

00:42:30: said…?

00:42:30: No, mostly bike makers, wheelchair makers.

00:42:33: sometimes there's exceptions but some big

00:42:38: shops

00:42:39: that sell bikes to end users in Switzerland mostly.

00:42:43: They are so powerful, they're so proactive... ...that even assembling themselves bikes from brands we all know get the frames and do the assembly themselves.

00:42:57: So these are also clients of SIXY because they buy the propulsion system from us And then they buy a frame form the bike maker.

00:43:08: So mostly OEMs and some big shops.

00:43:13: Is it changing the way that consumers look at products?

00:43:17: Are they more demanding, is it... ...is it changing overall at Exxon?

00:43:23: Oh yes!

00:43:23: I mean with the accessibility of information to everybody.

00:43:31: It seems like every so often if a customer comes into the store They are actually over informed in regards to the product, they most likely know more than the shop clerk.

00:43:44: Can

00:43:44: GPT stuff?

00:43:45: Yeah not only that but also accessibility on websites tests and I mean attire is a commodity.

00:43:52: yes so of course it becomes too.

00:43:55: performance tires.

00:43:56: you pay let's say seventy eighty ninety euros for attire.

00:44:00: It become more off part.

00:44:02: what do think about what kind of product you're buying becomes almost extensive purchase.

00:44:09: But yeah, the demand is absolutely changing and do also see this in the requirements for us as a manufacturer to provide these information not only let's say on our own website but also other representative channels too.

00:44:24: be competitive in this regard

00:44:26: probably means your.

00:44:27: so I have two work on marketing.

00:44:30: we do Same, when you said that your touring tours.

00:44:35: That's also for us.

00:44:36: we of course do more or less the marketing part to The buying group not necessarily consumers but on consumer events We are present because For us it is very important To just bring out the Kenda brand name a bit More Because the way that Kenda has been sold in Europe over the years, a Kenda brand name is not necessarily tied to high performance but for reliability.

00:45:08: And this is something that we are also in the process of

00:45:10: changing.".

00:45:12: How do you do the marketing off your brand Pierre?

00:45:14: Do you want people know the brand names succeed or just wanting them be very happy with the end product where you have contributed

00:45:25: too?".

00:45:26: Very happy first!

00:45:28: And then it's a bit by accident.

00:45:30: Very happy is vital because its new, so if not feeling like bike forget we won't go nowhere.

00:45:37: You can't force that kind of technology on people If they don't like it.

00:45:40: No and I wouldn't do actually cause.

00:45:42: if makes no sense i dont want to build the company.

00:45:44: that has no sense.

00:45:46: So first answer quite obvious.

00:45:51: It happens when you have the view this vehicle that goes on the highway, that rides a hundred and twenty kilometers an hour.

00:45:56: And it's equipped with exactly same pedaling technology.

00:46:00: That is huge ambassador for us.

00:46:02: Most people discover the chain-less through the Vigo.

00:46:05: Yeah So... It's not meant to do in beginning but we are benefiting from now.

00:46:15: It's a fantastic technological trend, and I for one would really like to test it in the near future because it sounds so Contra-intuitive To not have a chain on the bike.

00:46:26: Because i've been riding bikes forty seven years.

00:46:28: And does that Not Have A Chain On?

00:46:29: It feels

00:46:30: Welcome to The Club.

00:46:32: Yeah Probably with me a lot of consumers who just grew up on a conservative bike With two tires and a chain.

00:46:41: Which brings Me to a fun question Which technological trends do you think is overhyped and which one is very underestimated at the moment?

00:46:51: Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a technology or certain product per se.

00:46:58: It just... Over hyping this pressure to innovate because everybody is just very hungry for something new every year but for an industry per se, but especially not the bike industry because it's still very small and also this means that it houses a lot of small companies.

00:47:23: The most innovative one is even the smallest.

00:47:26: so therefore I think overhype should hopefully die off as hunger to see innovations on the recipient side.

00:47:41: But we do need the startups and the scale ups also.

00:47:44: Yeah, that's what I mean of course but it should happen more naturally than in a forced way or to say this hunger for seeing innovations.

00:47:56: It should... Of course We Need Innovation!

00:47:58: It Should Come In Definitely A Little Bit Of A Step Back Or Some Slowdown.

00:48:07: Also

00:48:07: An Appreciation Of What We Already Have Which

00:48:10: Yeah, it led over the past years.

00:48:13: This pressure actually lead to a change in color and just this is new model year.

00:48:18: so nothing else changed technology wise.

00:48:23: So that's one thing I see as definitely an override.

00:48:28: Underestimation certainly lies within these huge changes which help us bring industry forward such as you said, chainless drives.

00:48:40: And it's the tires that will last longer in a way and its tires also help to be used for urban applications like higher puncture resistance or pinchless tires.

00:49:02: the real solutions to problems that we are facing.

00:49:07: This is, I think a bit underestimated.

00:49:09: so it's really... In this industry where in and then this hunger for next innovation we ever-so often overlook what just makes a difference.

00:49:20: Pierre can imagine your business at CXC.

00:49:24: you could never have too much innovation or am i wrong?

00:49:26: No!

00:49:27: We don't think with other way.

00:49:28: Alexander said basically take fleet bikes.

00:49:34: They're a very good thing.

00:49:35: And I think even personal bikes, when you do commuting every day...

00:49:38: And fleetbikes?

00:49:39: You mean the Philippe in the

00:49:41: shared bike?

00:49:42: The only things that you want is a bike that rides well which means tires are working and propulsion works too!

00:49:54: If you have this on your bike.

00:49:56: it's not the case today.

00:49:58: each time you take a bike into these fleets or each time you take your bike in the morning, and then go to commute.

00:50:04: Then it's a problem with your chain... It's a pain!

00:50:09: You don't have this with your car.

00:50:11: that is where we should head to.

00:50:12: That's when innovation goes right now.

00:50:17: The first things I see around sometimes are very gadget-y.

00:50:27: I don't want to give examples.

00:50:28: No,

00:50:29: but it's nice and shiny!

00:50:30: And people like nice-and-shiny new things.

00:50:32: You think so?

00:50:32: It has this one-to-have factor right.

00:50:34: So that is what everybody does... ...And i'm guilty of there too.. ..I mean I like nice and shiney stuff in the end as well.

00:50:40: But do we really need this or was just an impulse purchase?

00:50:45: That's really much you want.

00:50:46: But also focus more on the basics of mobility instead only the nice and shining thing.

00:50:53: For sure.

00:50:54: there is a gap today if you speak of daily mobility and daily active mobility.

00:51:00: Today, daily active mobilty does not have the reliability Of Daily Mobility.

00:51:06: If You Go On A Train In Your Car You Won't Have The Technical Problems That You Will Have When You Go With Your Bike.

00:51:13: So We Should Get To That Standard Of Reliability.

00:51:16: I Need to Move Active And Then It's Possible.

00:51:19: i'm Not Gonna Have Change.

00:51:20: The Tire Change The Chain Change The Railer Like cassette goes wrong because it's been snowing and the salt in that product they put on the road destroyed everything, all these things shouldn't be

00:51:32: there.

00:51:34: That gives more of a level playing field to make really good decision between taking your car or taking active mobility.

00:51:42: And thats where you want go for future.

00:51:46: Alexander what do you wanna go?

00:51:47: What would be your

00:51:50: biggest wish?

00:51:51: Myself or the company.

00:51:54: You can share a personal story, we're fine with that but I think for What is something that you would really like to be part

00:52:06: of?

00:52:07: Yeah, we would just like to establish us as a go-to player for also the mid and high performance sector.

00:52:17: There's something where we see ourselves having the capability... I mean twenty years ago Kenda has been there!

00:52:23: So we have been with the Nevergal.

00:52:24: The Nevergal has been everywhere tire on MTB especially, I mean MTB is still our strong suit.

00:52:30: but also let's say in over-the-years We have lost traction In the market a bit and also we've been more volume driven in our manufacturing.

00:52:42: It happens naturally of course But this something that would like to reestablish Over the next five years.

00:52:48: so basically the dream of Kender.

00:52:55: We're talking about sixty-four years of Kende, Pierre you have just celebrated your tenth birthday so I'm not going to ask where are when you turn sixty four with sixty?

00:53:08: No that's gonna be a long time away.

00:53:10: but what would your ultimate dream for next one or two year?

00:53:15: because we aren't looking too far ahead?

00:53:17: is it level playing field?

00:53:19: people can take optimised decisions for an active choice?

00:53:23: If the question is about Cixi itself, having built a company that runs smoothly enough so I can retire.

00:53:33: To the French countryside!

00:53:35: That

00:53:35: will not be the case... So it's just a dream

00:53:37: right?!

00:53:40: And industry-wise hopefully we've done such good job at evangelizing about chainless and people trust in it and go to it naturally.

00:53:50: And we also have done a good job of not being hit too hard by competition that wouldn't accept the change.

00:53:59: So it's about progressing on the same path where you are now?

00:54:02: Keep the path, bring it to people...

00:54:05: Keep the bike rolling!

00:54:06: Exactly

00:54:08: Well, if we all keep rolling whether that is chainless.

00:54:12: Whether it's in a cargo bike or on very fast road bikes as long as you just keep moving...

00:54:21: It certainly will be on tyres!

00:54:24: We'll need tyres!

00:54:26: That's the main thing!

00:54:27: Philosophically and on the sixties side If we don't bring more people to active mobility then we won't need to exist And I'm completely confident with this as a company.

00:54:38: Well, that's a good way to end Pierre... To get more people in an active lifestyle and add life quality to your movement?

00:54:47: That is the purpose!

00:54:48: Thank you very much Alexander Mai, EU sales director at Kenda And thank you very And thank you very much for listening to Shift Happens and yeah, we hope bring more information from the bike industry because shift happens every day.